Need help? E-mail us: rtforumsupport@aol.com

A Message Board, Guestbook, or Poll hosted for your website.
Register Login Calendar
 
Message Board > Color Dilution Alopecia
 
Username:  
Password:  
 
   
 


Thread Tools Search This Thread 
Reply
 
Author Comment
 
MiniChamp
New Born Puppy
Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 3

    12/08/09 at 01:20 PMReply with quote#1

This mail is written by Rebecca Hassle in Germany

Dear Breeders!

As some of you maybe know, I am studying veterinary medicine. I followed the discussion about the blue colour with great interest, and like Helena and so many others here, I am interested in the best for this breed. So, I have started some research about bl...ue and lilac colour problems.
Today, I called Professor Dr. Tosso Leeb from the University in Bern (Switzerland). He is one of the leading experts in Europe for the blue & lilac colour disease named CDA ( = Color Dilution Alopecia ). I got his permission to post our conversation here.

The bad news:

There is currently no gene-test available which says that a dog is free from CDA or not. Right now, it is even unknown how the inheritance of CDA really works. This means, that even the selection on phenotype that some breeders already do (= selection on best coat) is not a 100% safe way to reduce CDA syndrome in blue or lilac dogs.
But: In the studies about blue and lilac, scientists found out that there are indeed lilac & blue dogs which show no signs of CDA: In some dog breeds there are dogs with almost or totally NO Problems with dilution colours (for example Weimaraner and Beagle). In other breeds, most or at least many of the blues seems to be affected (for example Great Munsterlander and Dobermann).
This shows that the problem with CDA is NOT only based on the diluted colour alone, but also requires some other additional factors.

The good news:

Professor Dr. Leeb is currently investigating CDA in various dog breeds. His wish & goal is to develop a gene test for CDA in the next years for several dog breeds. In our phone call, he was speculating that there might be a way to develop a gene test for CDA for the Russkiy Toy.
In order to achieve this goal, he would need a minimum of 40 different blood samples from us Russkiy Toy breeders.
What he exacly needs to develop this test for the Russkiy Toy is:
- Blood samples of Minimum 20 different Blue or Lilac Russkiy Toys that show coat problems. Owners of affected dogs can also send him skin biopsies, to clear if it is really CDA or just another coat problem that has nothing to do with CDA
(Info: Most often, CDA will start at the back side of the ears: Thin hair & bald spots appear).
- Blood samples of minimum 20 different Blue or Lilac Russkiy Toys that show no signs of coat problems, and that are at least 2 years old.
You will find infos about how to correctly make the blood sample here:
http://www.genetics.unibe.ch/unibe/vetme
d/genetic/content/e2353/e2694/e2699/files2700/2007May02_Instructions_e_eng.pdf
(or go to http://www.genetics.unibe.ch/content/ind
ex_eng.html => Research => dog => Color dilution alopecia (CDA) in various breeds => Instructions for sending samples pdf, 50KB)

As soon as Dr. Leeb has the 40 samples, he can begin to work and hopefully find a gene test for CDA. If we are lucky, the test could be archived within a year or two..
The Profits for you Breeders:
- You would get the tests from Professor Dr. Leeb for FREE ! You only have to pay your vet for taking the blood sample, and the shipping cost to Prof. Dr. Leeb in Switzerland (I think it does not cost very much, and some breeders maybe can sent their samples together and split the shipping costs). Normally, the development of such kinds of blood tests in dogs is NOT sponsored like in this case, which means that this is a unique chance for us breeders!!!
- Professor Dr. Leeb guarantees that the results of the research will be kept confidential. This means: If you send the samples, only you as owner will get the result of the test. NO identity of any dog or owner will be published by the researchers!!
- You as the Owner can for example publish the good results of your dogs, if you want. This will maybe give you even better chances in finding buyers for your puppies, and more interests in your blue or lilac stud dogs.
- In a year or two, there could be a gene test available, so you can test all your dogs, and with the results you might be able to tell with almost 100% certainty that your dog is free from CDA! This will give you great chances make your bloodlines more popular, and to sell your puppies in more countries. I know many people in western Europe are a bit afraid of the blue colour right now. This could change with this gene test, as we would have a fair chance to breed healthy blue & lilac colours.
What you can do:
- get blood samples from all your blue & lilac dogs. Write to Prof. Dr. Leeb the name of each dog , write if he shows signs or not, and the age.
-Tell other breeders from Professor Leebs research. Talk to them on dog shows, or write them an email. Try to convince them to send blood samples too. The more samples he gets, the faster and more reliable he can work!!
- Write a post in each big russkiy Toy forum with these infos. Translate this post into russian language, so more Russian breeders can read it.

Hope this infomations are useful..

AngelsToy
Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 53

    12/10/09 at 12:41 PMReply with quote#2

Thank you for this information.

It's very useful and people must be aware of this.  The blue color in RTs is very beautiful and many people get attracted to it easily. But as the puppy grows it can turn into something ugly with severe hair loss.

There are some Russian Breeders who breed only bald RTs.  They say they developed the bald lines from blue and lilac dogs.  Their veterinarians say the bald dogs are healthy, just bald.  : )  And they have a waiting list of future owners for their puppies.

In our kennel we don't have any blue dogs just because of the alopecia problem. Even if we had a perfect blue dog, it is uncertain what phenotype the puppies might display. 

A totally bald puppy is more desirable than one that starts life with a full coat then grows into patchy baldness.

__________________
Angelica Cain
http://angelstoykennel.com
Sweetheart
Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 30

    12/12/09 at 03:53 AMReply with quote#3

What is lilac color for a dog? Any picture I could see? Very interesting

AngelsToy
Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 53

    12/13/09 at 12:15 AMReply with quote#4

Sweetheart, here is an example of a lilac color Russian toy.



__________________
Angelica Cain
http://angelstoykennel.com
Sweetheart
Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 30

    12/13/09 at 03:43 PMReply with quote#5

Wow! That's a beautiful color! Will his eyes stay blue forever or will they change?

MiniChamp
New Born Puppy
Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 3

    12/14/09 at 04:27 AMReply with quote#6

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelsToy
Rebecca,

Thank you for this information.

It's very useful and people must be aware of this.  The blue color in RTs is very beautiful and many people get attracted to it easily. But as the puppy grows it can turn into something ugly with severe hair loss.

There are some Russian Breeders who breed only bald RTs.  They say they developed the bald lines from blue and lilac dogs.  Their veterinarians say the bald dogs are healthy, just bald.  : )  And they have a waiting list of future owners for their puppies.

In our kennel we don't have any blue dogs just because of the alopecia problem. Even if we had a perfect blue dog, it is uncertain what phenotype the puppies might display. 

A totally bald puppy is more desirable than one that starts life with a full coat then grows into patchy baldness.


If there is really somebody who engaged in breeding on total naked RT. I am in shock!
Do you have links to those who are doing this?

It is a known factor that there is greater mortality among blue / lillac puppies. if we look at other breeds suffering from BA many dogs have skin problems and need medication throughout their lives.

It's easy to sit in another country and claim that the bald RT is healthy ... Who can check it? none!

You say that these breeders have long waiting lists for these puppies? That is why they breed them? Then they breed only for money and not for the breed best of the breed. Of course, this is my personal opinion!

I'm not totally opposed to breed the blue RT, but one should be cautious. Do not use those who are affected by BA and not cross a blue one with another dog that has blue in his pedigree. At least not in their immediate genrasjoner. And certainly not cross two blue dogs!

AngelsToy
Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 53

    12/15/09 at 08:10 PMReply with quote#7

Yes sure, I have a link, but it is in Russian language only. Still you can see the pictures. They are the first kennel of Bald Russian Toys

http://toyreal.narod.ru/index.htm,

I read about this breeder on one of the Russian Forums about a year ago, and it sounded that the owner was answering there too. This time, I decided to call her and to talk about everything in person. That is why I delayed with my answer here a bit. I talked to her last night.

Well, according to what she said to me, they developed this line in 2004. And in the whole of Russia there are only about 20 bald Russian toys. Still is a very young line.

On this page of their website http://toyreal.narod.ru/puppies.htm you can see two bald parents. They had a litter of puppies on October 2nd. The breeder said the puppies are already sold.

You said, "It's easy to sit in another country and claim that the bald RT is healthy ... Who can check it? none!". I understand that you feel strongly about the issue. And I totally agree with you. There are a lot of breeders who are not very honest with buyers.

I travel back and forth to Russia frequently, but I've never personally seen those dogs. We all know that it's the reality that some breeders, who aren't the most honest, may claim their dogs are healthy or the best when in fact they aren't. She told me that they don't use blue or lilac dogs and they don't use Chinese Hairless Crested. (If you know there is a bald toy-terrier recently developed in the USA. It looks very similar to a bald Russian Toy, but is bigger in size and has a "hair hat" on his head and some hair on the tail. That line was developed using the Chinese Crested breed.)

This breeder said they only get hairless Russian toys by breeding poor coat dogs. She also said, she is not really interested in breeding Russian Toys. These bald ones happen accidentally and are very rare. Her interest actually lies with some other breed. She didn't tell me which breed. And she has 3 bald girls, whom she breeds with poor coat boys... She said only one in three resulting puppies is bald.

Doesn't sound too logical too me. I think she wasn't entirely honest. In order to get that bald line the way she told me they did, you must spend many years! But for them it is something they don't plan, they don't really work with Russian toys and get bald ones only accidentally... I think you can feel the lack of logic as well.

Also on this page you can see some of her bald Russian toys: http://toyreal.narod.ru/breeding.htm

P.S. I invited her to our forum, so she could share her experience with all of us, but she said she doesn't want to and doesn't care about anything regarding the Russian Toy. She claims she is not a breeder who works for profit. She said she even just gives them away for free. (Hard to believe though..., especially since at the beginning of our conversation she said the puppies were sold already.)


__________________
Angelica Cain
http://angelstoykennel.com
AngelsToy
Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 53

    12/16/09 at 02:41 AMReply with quote#8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetheart

Wow! That's a beautiful color! Will his eyes stay blue forever or will they change?

The color of eyes is independent of the color of fur, but naturally it depends on the presence of pigment in the organism. Very dark dogs can have very light eyes - light dog can be with dark eyes. So, nobody can say for sure if this exactly dog will change his eye color or not. Only time will tell.
But what is important, that blue and lilac color coats are considered in most of breeds as negative. It weakens not only the color of the dog but even his viability. If you ever decide to purchase such a dog, or his/her puppy, you must be very careful! There is still not any test available to prove if the parent or the puppy has the CDA syndrome or not. Even a breeder cannot know about it until his dog starts to change.

__________________
Angelica Cain
http://angelstoykennel.com
MiniChamp
New Born Puppy
Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 3

    12/16/09 at 03:06 PMReply with quote#9

Thanks so much for this. It is very interesting. On her web page she has a separate breed standard for bald toy. Is this approved by the Russian kennel club? It is certainly not in the FCI. So these dogs have, according to breed standards eliminating faults! Think it is strange that they are awarded a prize at all.

A good friend of mine is breeder of CC so I'm familiar with the breed. I have seen several CC all the way down in 2 kg. Possible one of these is mixed into the Toy? But of course it is only speculation.

She says they're free .. I think NOT

 
Thank you for sharing your information with us. Something new to learn every day
 
 
AngelsToy
Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 53

    12/16/09 at 05:53 PMReply with quote#10

Exactly! That is another thing that she is most probably not telling the truth about. Judgment of Russian Toys in dog shows in Russia is much stricter than the judgment here in the USA.

Almost any RT can get championship here. But there in Russia they check every small detail and it is really not easy to win. As she says (on her website), her dogs are champions of Russia and have other titles, it can't be true. According to the breed standard, all these dogs can get is 'Disqualified'.  The breed standard is something they made up themselves. That is an ordinary RT standard. They only changed the part about hair.

I personally like the idea of bald Russian Toys. There are bald cats, bald other breeds, why not Russian Toys? I am sure there would be people who like such a line. But I think everyone will agree, it would be a real work in developing healthy dogs. Not something that happens accidentally and the way they do it...

I think if one were really to start selecting the poor coat Russian Toys, and breed them together, in about 40 years we would get a close to bald dog line (may be). I don't think anyone in the 50 year history of Russian Toys did it... By the way, the longhair line has been developing for over 50 years already, and is still not entirely stable. You can never be too confident what you will get from two long-hair Russian Toys. Sometimes the hair is too long in the wrong places and too short in others. There is a lot more variability in the long hair line.

__________________
Angelica Cain
http://angelstoykennel.com
Sweetheart
Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 30

    12/16/09 at 05:58 PMReply with quote#11

Guys, I like those bald ones! I think they look unique. I don't think I would buy any of them because of the health issue, but otherwise, they are even cool!  

aboltuska
Avatar / Picture

Jr Puppy
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 21

    12/29/09 at 03:06 AMReply with quote#12

I hear for first time about problem with the blue color. I saw some of them for sale here in Moscow, but their owner never mentioned any danger behind that type of coat. She was telling all nice things about them. I would never even guess about such thing. The only reason I didn't buy a blue puppy was that I personally didn't like how those puppies looked like. I wonder if she was lying or she didn't know about it?

lovingmom
Jr Puppy
Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 14

    12/29/09 at 11:44 PMReply with quote#13

She probably wanted to sell them : )

Previous Thread | Next Thread
Reply

  Bookmarks  
Digg Diggdel.icio.us del.icio.usStumbleUpon StumbleUponGoogle Google